Use cases behind CIP story


Agustin Benito Bethencourt <agustin.benito@...>
 

Hi,

CIP is doing a significant effort to be present in many events to explain what are the motivations and goals of the group. The technical activity is about to start so there is very little to show and it will be the case for some time.

What can we focus on the coming months from the communication point of view?

I think there is a huge value in advertising the use cases that justify the commitment from companies like Toshiba, Hitachi and Siemens in CIP.

Some of those use cases are completely unknown for a wide range of developers, even many of those who are "Open Source veterans".

By exposing some of the challenges involved in those use cases CIP would not just provide a meaningful inside about our environment but also the opportunity to have a fruitful conversation with many of those engineers who might think that CIP idea of a Super Long Term Support kernel (system) is "anti-cultural".

So I would like to encourage CIP main drivers to provide and advertise some of those unique use cases. I find them extremely interesting. I hope many others will too.

Best Regards
--
Agustin Benito Bethencourt
Principal Consultant - FOSS at Codethink
agustin.benito@codethink.co.uk


Noriaki Fukuyasu <fukuyasu@...>
 

Hi Agustin

I think this is an extremely helpful post.

Why don't we start bring the stories of "Linux in the civil infrastructures in the world" together, and start a series of blog posts at the CIP website?

If people/companies are willing to contribute the stories, I would be more than happy to set up a blog section to the CIP web.
I would be very interested in hearing & promoting the use cases regardless of members and non-members. 

Then, we can talk about those stories at the events we are participating in.

regards

Nori



On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Agustin Benito Bethencourt <agustin.benito@...> wrote:
Hi,

CIP is doing a significant effort to be present in many events to explain what are the motivations and goals of the group. The technical activity is about to start so there is very little to show and it will be the case for some time.

What can we focus on the coming months from the communication point of view?

I think there is a huge value in advertising the use cases that justify the commitment from companies like Toshiba, Hitachi and Siemens in CIP.

Some of those use cases are completely unknown for a wide range of developers, even many of those who are "Open Source veterans".

By exposing some of the challenges involved in those use cases CIP would not just provide a meaningful inside about our environment but also the opportunity to have a fruitful conversation with many of those engineers who might think that CIP idea of a Super Long Term Support kernel (system) is "anti-cultural".

So I would like to encourage CIP main drivers to provide and advertise some of those unique use cases. I find them extremely interesting. I hope many others will too.

Best Regards
--
Agustin Benito Bethencourt
Principal Consultant - FOSS at Codethink
agustin.benito@...
_______________________________________________
cip-dev mailing list
cip-dev@...
https://lists.cip-project.org/mailman/listinfo/cip-dev



--
Noriaki Fukuyasu

The Linux Foundation
Tel: +81-80-4350-1133
Twitter: nori_fukuyasu
Facebook: linuxfoundationjp

Please visit our web sites:


Paul Sherwood
 

On 2016-09-15 16:23, Noriaki Fukuyasu wrote:
I think this is an extremely helpful post.

Why dont we start bring the stories of "Linux in the civil
infrastructures in the world" together, and start a series of blog
posts at the CIP website?
I'd personally prefer to see the discussion start on this list, rather than blog posts, since that way people can question, comment and discuss.

If people/companies are willing to contribute the stories, I would be
more than happy to set up a blog section to the CIP web.
I would be very interested in hearing & promoting the use cases
regardless of members and non-members. 
I'd recommend that blog posts can distill from and summarise the list discussion.

Then, we can talk about those stories at the events we are
participating in.
Agreed.


Agustin Benito Bethencourt <agustin.benito@...>
 

Hi,

On 15/09/16 17:44, Paul Sherwood wrote:
On 2016-09-15 16:23, Noriaki Fukuyasu wrote:
I think this is an extremely helpful post.

Why dont we start bring the stories of "Linux in the civil
infrastructures in the world" together, and start a series of blog
posts at the CIP website?
I'd personally prefer to see the discussion start on this list, rather
than blog posts, since that way people can question, comment and discuss.

If people/companies are willing to contribute the stories, I would be
more than happy to set up a blog section to the CIP web.
I would be very interested in hearing & promoting the use cases
regardless of members and non-members.
If the use cases are so complex that requires a blog or authors want to use them internally for marketing/promo, then a blog would be probably the best option.

Starting a blog is a big commitment over time though. I would start a little smaller using:
* This mailing list, as Paul suggested.
* CIP presentations at events.
** Slides and videos of our talks where the cases are described.

Once we get more robust as project, we can create a blog. Meanwhile, we can post the outcome of our presentations and use this mailing list.

I suggest to bring here (mailing list) a couple of cases and getting one of them into the ELCE or LinuxCon presentation, for instance, or something in this line.

Best Regards
--
Agustin Benito Bethencourt
Principal Consultant - FOSS at Codethink
agustin.benito@codethink.co.uk


Yoshitake Kobayashi
 

Hi all,

On 2016/09/16 2:36, Agustin Benito Bethencourt wrote:
Hi,

On 15/09/16 17:44, Paul Sherwood wrote:
On 2016-09-15 16:23, Noriaki Fukuyasu wrote:
I think this is an extremely helpful post.

Why dont we start bring the stories of "Linux in the civil
infrastructures in the world" together, and start a series of blog
posts at the CIP website?
I'd personally prefer to see the discussion start on this list, rather
than blog posts, since that way people can question, comment and discuss.

If people/companies are willing to contribute the stories, I would be
more than happy to set up a blog section to the CIP web.
I would be very interested in hearing & promoting the use cases
regardless of members and non-members.
If the use cases are so complex that requires a blog or authors want to use them internally for marketing/promo, then a blog would be probably the best option.

Starting a blog is a big commitment over time though. I would start a little smaller using:
* This mailing list, as Paul suggested.
* CIP presentations at events.
** Slides and videos of our talks where the cases are described.

Once we get more robust as project, we can create a blog. Meanwhile, we can post the outcome of our presentations and use this mailing list.

I suggest to bring here (mailing list) a couple of cases and getting one of them into the ELCE or LinuxCon presentation, for instance, or something in this line.
I am planning to show a demo at ELC-E which explains a candidate use case of CIP.
The demo will be a full power plant simulator and controller. In this demo,
Linux runs on all controllers to control plant systems.
The above demo is just an example.

It might be better to provide some typical development and maintenance schedule/process
to explain why CIP is important for civil infrastructure systems.

Best regards,
Yoshi


Agustin Benito Bethencourt <agustin.benito@...>
 

Hi,

On 16/09/16 10:04, KOBAYASHI Yoshitake wrote:
Hi all,

On 2016/09/16 2:36, Agustin Benito Bethencourt wrote:
Hi,

On 15/09/16 17:44, Paul Sherwood wrote:
On 2016-09-15 16:23, Noriaki Fukuyasu wrote:
I think this is an extremely helpful post.

Why dont we start bring the stories of "Linux in the civil
infrastructures in the world" together, and start a series of blog
posts at the CIP website?
I'd personally prefer to see the discussion start on this list, rather
than blog posts, since that way people can question, comment and
discuss.

If people/companies are willing to contribute the stories, I would be
more than happy to set up a blog section to the CIP web.
I would be very interested in hearing & promoting the use cases
regardless of members and non-members.
If the use cases are so complex that requires a blog or authors want
to use them internally for marketing/promo, then a blog would be
probably the best option.

Starting a blog is a big commitment over time though. I would start a
little smaller using:
* This mailing list, as Paul suggested.
* CIP presentations at events.
** Slides and videos of our talks where the cases are described.

Once we get more robust as project, we can create a blog. Meanwhile,
we can post the outcome of our presentations and use this mailing list.

I suggest to bring here (mailing list) a couple of cases and getting
one of them into the ELCE or LinuxCon presentation, for instance, or
something in this line.
I am planning to show a demo at ELC-E which explains a candidate use
case of CIP.
The demo will be a full power plant simulator and controller. In this demo,
Linux runs on all controllers to control plant systems.
The above demo is just an example.
You just open my appetite for knowing more. If possible, share here some info and I will be more than happy to help shaping the presentation to make an even bigger hit.


It might be better to provide some typical development and maintenance
schedule/process
to explain why CIP is important for civil infrastructure systems.
Agree.

There is another aspect that many do not consider when approaching the maintenance problem which is risk.

We are very use to nowadays to evaluate maintenance costs. But maintenance might involve very high risks in certain environments and tackle them might require a heavy investment. This might heavily affect the maintenance policies.

I am curious about how Toshiba face this topic for the power plan use case you are proposing.


Best regards,
Yoshi

_______________________________________________
cip-dev mailing list
cip-dev@lists.cip-project.org
https://lists.cip-project.org/mailman/listinfo/cip-dev
--
Agustin Benito Bethencourt
Principal Consultant - FOSS at Codethink
agustin.benito@codethink.co.uk


Urs Gleim
 

Hi,

On 16.09.2016 12:30, Agustin Benito Bethencourt wrote:
It might be better to provide some typical development and maintenance
schedule/process
to explain why CIP is important for civil infrastructure systems.
Agree.

There is another aspect that many do not consider when approaching the
maintenance problem which is risk.

We are very use to nowadays to evaluate maintenance costs. But
maintenance might involve very high risks in certain environments and
tackle them might require a heavy investment. This might heavily
affect the maintenance policies.
let me try to sketch one example for typical rail automation products:
- development time of a new system: 3-5 years
- customer specific adaptions: 2-4 years
- initial safety certifications / authorization: 1 year
- safety certifications / authorization for follow-up releases: 3-6 months
(depending on amount of changes)
- lifetime today typically 25 years, for some systems up to 50 years

Especially the time (and money) required for the certification for new
releases explains why in general there are no frequent updates.
If new releases are necessary, e.g. because of security reasons the
above mentioned efforts can be drastically reduced by only changing
minor parts (efforts of course vary on type of system and safety level).
Less changes mean less effort. Switching a kernel version is not
considered to be a small change. That's why these products typically
stick to a kernel version for long time which has been tested
extensively in the system environment.

We have similar situations in other domains. Healthcare, for example.
The product lifetimes are shorter, typically 10-15 years. Still there
are certifications (like FDA) which have to be done on system level
which lead to the same problems.

In addition to this there is a general trend that safety critical
functions are more and more implemented in software. This means that the
number of products having those certification need will further increase.

I would also like to state one important point: the super-long-term
maintenance is not a crazy idea by some industry people. It is done
already. Only that it is done behind closed doors by privately
maintained patch-sets. And this is what we would like to change.

best regards,
Urs